PurpleCar - Latest Comments in Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

Mike_S_Htown — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 17:12:16 -0000

Recovering Scotch Addict,

I am so glad to hear that you're recovering! I see you have a long way to go -- especially re: learning common courtesy skills that sober people need -- but I want you to know that your Internet friends are pulling for you!

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

PurpleCar — Fri, 15 Jun 2012 08:32:36 -0000

Dear Recovering-Scotch-Addict,

Thanks for your comment.

I usually don't respond to commenters who throw out the accusation of "dick," but I will just give you the benefit of the doubt and look past that particularly rude bit for the sake of discussion. I'm sure you didn't mean it to sound like it did.
I decided to not undervalue myself or my writing in order to give it away to Amazon to sell. If Amazon didn't sell it, I'd write reviews for them. Users who write reviews on Amazon don't realize that Amazon is taking advantage of that altruism, that Amazon is monetizing their good deed. That was the point of my blog post.

At the core of this debate is the design and expectations of users versus that of the companies on the Internet. Free content or paid content? Volunteer workers or paid workers? People own their data or companies own people's data?
Obviously, one extreme or the other won't work. We expect companies to know our preferences and we want our goods cheap but we don't want them to sell our data to other companies. We want our content for free but we don't want to write for free.
I understood the Amazon TOS. I used to write TOS, training materials, etc., as well as being a server administrator. I get it. The TOS at the time, as I recall, was typically and purposefully vague about the attribution of reviews. I was under the impression that yes, Amazon would rent out customer reviews, but they would include the links back. Now, it's possible that this vendor that used my un-attributed review stripped the links, because they figured they paid Amazon enough for the data and didn't need to link back to Amazon. I get that, also.
But that doesn't fix things for me, as a writer, as a content producer, as a person of the Internet. My interests and the interests of other Internet users are not represented in this fight, and that was my point.
Users do get free content, sure, but I'm not a fan of too much free content, either. For example, I happily pay my $29.95/year for my Merriam Webster's online subscription that includes all the etymologies of each word, along with other great features. Simple definitions can be free, but the in-depth content shouldn't be. I wanted other users to be aware of what, truly, they were getting themselves into. Educating users on the benefits and dangers of the Internet is one of the main purposes of PurpleCar.
So I guess for me, and probably for you too, judging by your boardroom image, the real issue is about quality. Quality reviews should be paid, or, at the very least, linked back. Always. Amazon could do the right thing here and find a way to better represent their customers/volunteer workers. Any company with some vision will work toward good customer relations, because users are getting more and more savvy as the years go by. Amazon won't get any quality reviews and their comments will sink to YouTube levels. This is already starting; People disregard reviews more and more because they are free and unsolicited. Amazon's reviews will get a reputation for being base and useless.
I hope this lends a bit more light on my thought process.

As an aside, perhaps you should rethink your tone when commenting. I'm sure you'd get more stimulating discussions going if you dropped the pre-millennial-Internet troll act and just stated your point respectfully. You'll get blocked less, too. Don't surf angry, Dude.

Good luck and thanks for stumbling upon my little blog. I can't imagine how you found it!

-PurpleCar

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

recovering-scotch-addict — Thu, 14 Jun 2012 21:27:16 -0000

I know that this is an old thread, but Christine, can I just respectfully point out that you acted like a complete dick here. You wrote a review, ffs. A review, not a book. An unsolicited review at that.

And Amazon used the review as specified by the stipulations contained within their T&C. As you subsequent comments below show, you don't even have a strong grasp on the concept, beyond the fact that you should be able to monetize your review (actually, you could, as my 6k odd review and blog can attest to).

I guess the Amazon boardroom must've been in turmoil when you announced that you would no longer write reviews on their site. Oh well, I guess the world's largest book seller had to change their whole marketing strategy in the wake of your silly little tantrum - oh wait, they didn't.

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

Hugh-small — Tue, 31 May 2011 11:00:35 -0000

Thanks for the reply.

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

PurpleCar — Tue, 31 May 2011 10:37:49 -0000

I haven't looked back at Amazon's policy since I wrote this post. It may have changed by now. I do recall that I had problems using links, even though I know how to write the html link href syntax.

I would suggest writing to Amazon specifically to ask before I wrote anything for them.

-Christine

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

Hugh-small — Tue, 31 May 2011 07:55:09 -0000

Christine
I understand from the comments above that reviewers on Amazon can incorporate links to their own web site in the reviews. Is this true? I thought Amazon did not allow this or deleted them? I can't find it in the Amazon rules.

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

Sharon — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 23:41:47 -0000

Hi Christine,

I did write to Amazon and explained the situation. Hopefully I will hear back from them soon. Peter mentioned something about Amazon still might have my book review somewhere in the back pages, even though I deleted it already? I am hoping they do. If not, perhaps I will get a solid answer from them about whether the author is an "Affiliate" or not. Armed with that information, I've made my case. From the quick turn the authors legal counsel made away from the agreement issue, I think I hit a nerve on that point. Time will tell.

There are ways to make his life miserable, but so far I like the C&D letter idea. While googling on this topic, I saw one somewhere. Now all I have to do is find my way back to it again! I wonder how long before I hear from Amazon?

Thanks for the well wishes Christine. I'm glad I happened across your site here. :o)

Sharon

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

Sharon — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 22:55:22 -0000

Hi Mike,

He is a "maroon!" lol Who knows what his reasons are for digging in heels on this. What he keeps telling me is, he has the right to do so. His lawyer and I are in a dialogue and I'm beginning to wonder about his capabilities. He shared some of his research with me and he is citing cases from 1966, 1986, 1981, and the youngest one being 1991. Sorry, but I find this hilarious! And they don't even apply to our issue! Rather than simply tell me what kind of agreement he has with Amazon, he has switched gears, claiming Fair Use now. I have a sneaking suspicion I hit onto something with that "Participation Agreement" In most cases, Fair Use would not allow for the copying of the complete book review. He also said that since I quoted from their book (very minimal), I don't see them "whining"! lol Oh, and once I used any of their quotes, my book review is fair game. It's really been something else.

BTW, I know both of these fellows (on the internet, not in person) and have for awhile. I've recently changed some of my views and they are not playing nice now that I'm (in their eyes) some kind of enemy. So there is some personal stuff going on in the midst of this but I'm not mixing the two and have limited my talks about the copyright issue to their uh... legal counsel. (I still can't get over the dates on these case's he is bringing up! Anyone can google and find more current information about copyright laws! Goodness! lol)

Thanks for well wishes!

Sharon

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

PurpleCar — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 20:56:02 -0000

Yeah, I have to agree with Mike.

It's not in the book author's best interest to use a review that the writer wants removed. He's innocent to the ways of Google. You could, if you were so evilly inclined, "google bomb" him and his site with horrible reviews, etc. If he were a smart author, he'd comply with your wishes immediately. It isn't worth the risk of pissing off Amazon and it isn't worth the risk of pissing off the wrong, ultra-connected person on the web. This guy sounds crazy, though. Book sales are so touch and go these
days. Authors don't want to make stupid moves like make a fan angry ... it
will wind up on Facebook, Live Journal, MySpace, Twitter, etc. You
don't want the first entry of a Google search to return anything but
your website.

Write to Amazon, but perhaps also write the book author a C&D letter. A Cease and Desist letter is quite effective in most cases. It's a legal letter that is an official warning by you to the offender. It's a matter of due course in a legal case. Judges will expect you to give a person fair warning before you sue them. If you need templates of a C&D letter, just search the internet or ask around. A lawyer can write one for you too, for usually a small fee. If you have a friend who is a lawyer, have them write it for you but sign your own name. Send it to the book author. Most people will immediately stop using your content once they get a C&D.

Good luck.
-Christine Cavalier, PurpleCar
http://www.purplecar.net/

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Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

mike — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:38:11 -0000

Sharon,

>>He called me deceptive and a few other choice things and didn't answer the question, so there isn't much cooperation on their end.

I believe that Bugs Bunny would say "What a maroon!" Why would he want to start a fight over this?

Good luck w/ your battle -- I hope you prevail. Irrespective of whether or not he is legally right, it bothers me that he is using a deleted review against the review author's wishes to enrich himself.

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

Sharon — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:11:27 -0000

Hi Christine and Peter,

Thank you for the feedback. I am going to write to Amazon to clarify the situation. I did go to Amazon's "Partication Agreement" which is for those who sell product, and it clearly states they are also under the same privacy terms as the buyer, or in my case, the one who wrote a review. In one section of the agreement, it clearly distinguishes between an Affiliate and a Participant, so I asked the author to clarify whether he was an Affiliate or a Participant. He called me deceptive and a few other choice things and didn't answer the question, so there isn't much cooperation on their end. But, if I find out they have violated my copyright on the review, then they have more to lose than I because they could lose their right to sell the book at Amazon. I don't know if they've even thought about it that far down the road or not. Who knows.

Thanks again for the feedback. When I get this straightened out, I'll let you know the results.

Sharon

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

peterdurwardharris — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 17:35:12 -0000

I second what PurpleCar just said on this. If you see your review somewhere and you aren't sure whether the site is entitled to use it, check with Amazon.

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

PurpleCar — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:13:52 -0000

Sharon,

You should write to Amazon and tell them that this author has taken content from their site. I wouldn't take his word about being a licensee of the work. If you deleted the review, it shouldn't be there for the author's taking.
Good luck and let me know how it goes.

-Christine Cavalier, PurpleCar

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Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

Sharon — Sun, 31 Jan 2010 15:12:02 -0000

Hi, I have a question. I wrote a review for a book on Amazon, but decided to remove that review (for personal reasons). Shortly after I removed the review from Amazon, I learned one of the authors of the book had my review, which he copied from the Amazon site, posted on his website without my permission. Now, he is claiming he is a "sublicensee" of Amazon and has a right to use my review as he see's fit.

Anyone know if the author of a book offered for sale on Amazon, is considered an "affiliate" and/or a "sublicensee" of Amazon? I appreciate any thoughts on this.
Thanks! Sharon

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

PurpleCar — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:06:56 -0000

Peter, thanks for your thoughtful response.

Amazon does, in fact, sell your reviews. This is a different system than affiliate selling.

Amazon charges sites to access their catalog. Along with the catalog, they include some reviews. I'm not privvy to the formula (or what coders call "algorithms") that choose which reviews get packaged along with the catalog, but be assured that the user reviews are offered as a part of that catalog. Amazon would sell less catalog rentals if people stopped writing free reviews for them. The reviews are what set them apart from other ISBN/product code catalogs.

This really comes down to how one views the internet and how to use it. Reviews are work. Getting the "freebies" of which you speak is now a forbidden practice, as per new FTC "guidelines."

I'm not in it for free books. I can get my books from the library or buy them myself. The amount of "freebies" of stuff I don't even want or have space for doesn't compensate me for the work of reviews. You obviously don't have the same opinion about that, and that's cool. Lots of people enjoy seeing their name in the Amazon review areas, even if their reviews end up on the back pages. The thrill of that for me faded a long time ago.

-PC

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Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

peterdurwardharris — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 17:32:49 -0000

I am sad to hear that you get so upset over this issue. I have posted a substantial number of reviews on Amazon on several of their sites, but especially in Britain and America. My reviews are on more websites than I care to imagine because of the Amazon affiliate rules, but it doesn't bother me. I never expected to make money from my reviews although I have benefited a little by being offered free stuff to review, most of which I don't accept as it's not what interests me.

I eventually became an Amazon affiliate myself but I haven't exactly exploited it. I make a modest amount of money that I receive as credit to buy stuff from Amazon. At one time, I looked into the rules for posting Amazon reviews on my own blogs. I discovered that these rules are actually quite strict and I couldn't just cherry-pick which reviews I wanted. In fact, although Amazon reserve the right to do anything and everything, affiliates are restricted to taking reviews off the main product pages, and they must refresh their affiliate pages at regular intervals. If you're familiar with Amazon's product pages, you'll know that some products have hundreds of reviews. Only a few of them are featured on the main product page, the rest being buried on continuation pages - or back pages, as reviewers call them. Reviews on back pages can't be used by affiliates. Reading what you've posted, it seems that even the reviews on the main page can only be used in the way that Amazon supplies them. So while Amazon's TOS make it appear that they can do what they like with my reviews, that's just a catch-all piece of legal jargon. From an affiliate perspective, things are somewhat different.

Amazon do not own the copright to my reviews. I own the copyright, but by posting my reviews to Amazon, I have granted them nonexclusive rights to distribute those reviews. The nonexclusive bit is crucial - it means that I can post my reviews (or quote from them) elsewhere, and I can give permission for other people to use my review on their own website or blog, whether or not they are an Amazon affiliate. On my own blogs, I prefer to post links to the Amazon Permalink pages containing my reviews, rather than to copy and paste my actual reviews. (There are several reasons for this, not least that if I edit my Amazon review, I don't have to edit my blog version). If I choose, I can use this method to discuss other people's reviews, since I'm merely linking to an Amazon page rather than copying from it. But I rarely do that.

As far as I know, Amazon do not sell the reviews they distribute. The affiliate scheme makes money for Amazon on the products sold. So if you buy something from Amazon having arrived there through a link provided by an affiliate AFTER signing into Amazon, the affiliate gets a small commission but you pay the same price as if you'd signed in to Amazon in the standard way. Amazon presumably get extra traffic through these affiliates so this extra traffic pays for the commission.

I am sad that you have decided not to review on Amazon, but that's your decision. As a prolific reviewer, I have made contacts around the world as well as getting those freebies. I've also had plenty of aggravation but the pleasures outweigh the aggravation otherwise I'd have quit years ago.

One other thing - Amazon never truly delete anything as far as I know. Your deleted reviews are still there, hiding from view. Amazon even remembers the dates, so if you decide one day to review the same products from the same account, they'll be given the dates of the original reviews. Somehow, I don't think you'll be doing that.

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

PurpleCar — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:22:17 -0000

No problem Mike! You know me (literally!). I'm a font of information. Or copied and pasted emails, which pretty much constitute "information" nowadays.

Thanks for stopping in!

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Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

Mike S. — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:04:59 -0000

Interesting -- and good to know. Thanks!

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

PurpleCar — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:14:02 -0000

Thomas, thanks so much!

Firstly, good work on the Amazon TOS. I was hoping someone like you would find the exact paragraph in all that muck. My gratitude!

Secondly, thanks for clarifying "fair use." Will think about revising my post to cut out the unofficial use of it. Can't do that right at this moment but I will look at it soon. (Not a big fan of major editing after posting, so I may just publish an "Update" of your useful information.) Again, my thanks.

Thirdly, yes, you're correct, Amazon can still publish my work even though I deleted it, but deleting it is my little form of protest. Also, it's my hope that their huge infrastructure will re-claim the dinky white (disk) space and truly delete the work, or at least remove it from the freely-referenced content. I'm not privvy to their infrastructure design, but I know as a former sys admin that it's possible that my deleting the work may keep it from being distributed again.

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

thomast — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 21:10:34 -0000

Amazon's position on this isn't particularly hard to find or hard to understand. It's in their conditions of use. Paragraph two of the "REVIEWS, COMMENTS, COMMUNICATIONS, AND OTHER CONTENT" section:

If you do post content or submit material, and unless we indicate otherwise, you grant Amazon a nonexclusive, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable right to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, and display such content throughout the world in any media. You grant Amazon and sublicensees the right to use the name that you submit in connection with such content, if they choose.

Crummy policy, indeed, but there it is. The "irrevocable" part means that deleting the reviews doesn't obligate them to stop distributing them either on their own site or sublicensees', though in practice they almost certainly will. It is a nonexclusive license, so you do retain copyright, which you can use elsewhere however you see fit. I think you've now made an informed decision, which is far more than most other Amazon users do - you've decided that the value that Amazon offers in exchange for the license (exposure, publication, and link-backs if they feel like it) they demand is worth less than the value of your work. Bravo. I don't review regularly on Amazon, and don't make my living from writing, but I might very well come to a different, but equally well-informed, decision.

One quibble, with your description of "fair use" above. Fair use refers to allowed use of material under copyright without any implied or explicit license. Credited uses of excerpts for the sake of commentary, satire, etc. are fair use, and would be allowed regardless of your license. If a site which sells stuff cited a paragraph from your review of NurtureShock as part of a longer review, they would be making fair use of your content, and you wouldn't be able to rely on the non-commercial clause of your CC license to make them stop. When non-commercial sites use the entirety of one of your blog posts, with the specified attribution, they are making licensed use of your content under the CC license that you granted them, not fair use. Just as Amazon and NewAndUsedBooks.com were making licensed use of your work, albeit under a different license whose terms Amazon, not you as the author, set. Your FairShare alerts probably turn up both fair uses and licensed uses of your work, and it's important to know the difference.

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

PurpleCar — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:49:04 -0000

Sending them an invoice would just be an experiment, and ending up being an experiment in futility I'm sure. But if my review is still up on newandusedbooks.com without credit in 3 business days, I will send them an invoice.

This is a legal hole, I think. Amazon says they own the content and can sell it (I'm assuming), so newandusedbooks.com will refer me to that policy. Still, it doesn't seem that newandusedbooks have set up protection from this. I'm not a barister or a lawyer, so I don't know. It would be interesting to find out. The point of contention is that they removed the links. Amazon lets you have a link in exchange for the review, but they let their affiliates remove those links. That seems unfair.

I may call up my intellectual property lawyer friend about this.

Re: Bye-Bye, Amazon: Why I Won’t Write Reviews For You Again

Dean W — Sun, 27 Sep 2009 16:37:50 -0000

I would have sent (would still send!) an invoice to Newandusedbooks. Money pretty much always speaks louder than words - especially deleted ones!