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You should know that I normally don't reply to things like this but you really have left me no choice. I will start by saying that I have not read the series but I did see the movie. I do agree with some of your analysis of the characters and their interaction. What I fail to understand why you feel the need to attack or associate the book with the Mormon religion. Yes I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, converted or joined in Jan of 1980.
As far as I can see from the movie the only thing that closely or metaphorically resembles the beliefs of the Mormon religion but is not exclusive to it, is the idea that some of our most powerful desires should be controlled. I think that can be said for most, if not all of the religions of the world and in reality it can be said of all human societies. For example, the Cullens believe human life is precious and should be preserved and protected. So they have become "vegetarians" to control their most powerful desires and must struggle to not kill every human they come in contact with. As far as I can tell the idea that human life is precious and killing humans is not is not good has been a part of every civilized society. And, the idea that sexual desire should be controlled and sex should be reserved for and kept within the bounds of marriage is not a Mormon only idea, so why the rant?
Could it be that you just didn't like the books because they are long and boring? Or could it be that you didn't like the books because they are wildly popular? Maybe you have a prejudice against the Mormon religion and you couldn't get past the fact the author is Mormon? Maybe you just have huge issues with people controlling their sexuality or keeping their virginity until marriage or being faithful after marriage? It might be that you believe having children early in a marriage is wrong? Who knows?
One thing I can say with certainty. This quote from above "(I’ve heard strange things about Mormonism, how a female can’t enter Heaven unless their husband calls out the special name the husband made up for her from the other side. It makes me wonder exactly how closely the books follow Mormon doctrine. I’ll bet a lot more closely.)" is uneducated, prejudicial and a surprisingly uncharacteristic for you. I must say you have “heard” and must believe these weird things about a conservative Christian religion. There are many other books and movies out there that are blatant attempts to evangelize the author’s religion, this is not one of them. The Matrix and Battlefield Earth come to mind quickly, why not go after them?
If there is a social commentary from this series it would seem that it would be more about the number of people who have a warped idea of romance. Edward and all of the "Cullens" are weird scary and anything but romantic. I find it disturbing that some people feel it is romantic for a man to sneak into a teenage girl’s bedroom almost every night to watch her sleep, not to mention he stalks her as she goes out with girlfriends. From your other comments it sounds like the “relationship” gets worse. How can this be romantic, or religious?
So the bottom line is that attributing the ranting of one frustrated, housewife's weird, warped fantasy about romance with the Mormon religion is not only irresponsible but it is an insult to your intellect.
CCP even stated that she was not taking issue with Stephenie's Mormon beliefs. She was taking issue with the way the book was written. Period.
You know I love you, as you are one of my long-time real-life friends. Let me say a few things.
I don't want to offend Mormons, or any religious people for that matter. I said I have no issue with the beliefs. But no reviews are talking about this aspect, and I thought that I'd bring it up for discussion because the references are so clear. I did make a parenthetical statement in the post that it could be any conservative christian religion. I chose Mormon because Ms. Meyer makes no bones about how her religion influences her writing. You and I have talked about Mormon, and I've read a bit about it as you know I am curious about world religions. I've read more than the average non-Mormon person about Mormon, I'd guess. Like all religions, there are some basic and yet more secret tenets. I'm not as privy to the secret tenets, so that's why I ventured in the direction of "I'll bet there are even more religious references in here that I even know."
I think Meyer has betrayed your religion, actually, by portraying such a destructive relationship. I really, really want you to read the books, Curtis. I've seen the movie and it was the worst screenplay I've ever seen adapted from a book. The book is boring, no doubt, but I think a high school student could have written a more faithful account of the book.
As for my beliefs, which you are right to question (always question!), I'm not particularly religious as you know. And I avoid putting down any rules for people. Getting married early and having children early in marriages seems to work for a lot of people, especially if you have a small community that supports such things. I wish there was more support for marriage and commitment in our general society, including marriage for gay people. Marriage and family units are the basis of our society, so anything we can do to encourage that commitment between people will make our society stronger. It's as simple as that. (I don't believe in polygamy or marriage for those under 18.)
I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with Meyer's views. I have a feeling, though, that pointing out the religiosity alone is enough to offend the sensitive.
I should have put the stuff about the destructive relationship at the top. You are right about that. It really is the more important aspect of the warning. Kids under 13, probably under 16, shouldn't be reading these books. See this article here: http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-caw-wo...
Thanks for writing, Curits. Read over the review again, please. I mention the religiosity but I don't judge it. I just wanted to point it out.
love, PC
The part of the book that I totally had a problem with, and a 100% agree with you, is the controlling hold that Edward had over Bella. The entire time that I was reading the books, I was really uncomfortable thinking that my nieces, age 12, and age 10, were also reading the series. I do not want my nieces, or any female for that matter, to feel that their "soulmate" is the end all be all to their life. Perhaps this was written as a primer for Mormonism, or rather, written knowing that we women tend to lust over stories like this.
The only redeeming thing about these books is that it gets kids, who otherwise would not read, to read. I think if your children are reading the Twilight series, you do as a parent have a duty to read them as well so that you can discuss the aspects of the book that are troubling, and redeeming. I read this book because I wanted to be in tune with what today's youth are reading, and to also be able to talk about it with my nieces. Plus, I love vampire stories, and was a follower of Anne Rice for the longest time. Well, as you know there is no comparison.
As for the Mormon connection, blame Stephanie Meyer for that, not Ms. Cavalier. The histrionic reproach is undeserved.
Yes, the more important issue is that the characters are ridiculously selfish and self-motivated, and the relationship between Bella and Edward is a horrific example for young girls. I shudder to think that any young woman is reading this series. Parents need to discuss it thoroughly with their kids.
As for getting people to read, Lindsey, I hear you, but this isn't the answer. Read the article I linked above, from the LA times. Here is the link again: http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-caw-wo...
Your nieces are way too young for this series. I'm glad you are reading it so you can talk to them about it.
-PC
I have re-read both your and my posts and must say mine seems to read worse than I intended, sorry. I know you and should have considered what I know about you with more gravity before publishing the post.
My ultimate goal was to make a couple of point in disagreement with you while agreeing on others. While I agree with most of your points on the series I disagree with the connections to the religion. I am not sure if the author betrayed the religion but I think her own comments about the influence the religion in the books has been misunderstood. She was raised a devout Mormon in Utah, if I understand correctly. Expecting her or anyone who was raised in Utah or other areas of the western US where the LDS Church is prominent, members or not to not be influenced by that culture is unrealistic. It would be akin to expecting a devout Catholic who grew up in Rome to not be influenced by that religion. That was point one, the second point on the religion was that in no way does it teach that men should be dominating or controlling with interpersonal relationships. Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is that this point is addressed, preached, taught or otherwise reinforced very very often. In relationships especially marriage relationships men and women are EQUAL. I am not sure why we have to keep going over this again and again at church, I guess it is because many people just don't get it. It may be because there are so many other "conservative Christian" religions that teach things like "the man is the leader/ruler" and all family members defer to him and we gain members so fast that this teaching is hard to get rid of. We teach that men and women have different gifts or talents but this is far different than the ruling man that so many people seem to think we teach. So for example women in general are more sensitive and caring in relationships than men and we are taught that we should learn this from our wife. That was a solid butchering of that example. The point is that there should be no dominance or subordinate role in a marriage it is a partnership with two people who have different talents and abilities and they are to work together to build a strong and lasting relationship. So when the relationship that is written about in this series is equated to "what Mormons" believe is particularly annoying. I see these references made all across the internet and I guess I just unloaded on you. Again I apologize.
As to your statement that there are ... how did you say it ... "I'd guess. Like all religions, there are some basic and yet more secret tenets. I'm not as privy to the secret tenets," I can tell you honestly that there is NOTHING that is taught in the church that can't be found on the internet, absolutely nothing. There are tenets that we consider sacred and you would be hard pressed to get a devout Mormon to talk about but they are written and published and church officials do not seek them out to have them removed. It is precisely because they are not secret but sacred in our teachings. The problem is that there is so much weird, strange, or otherwise incorrect information it would be hard for someone such as yourself to tell which is correct and which isn't. I fully understand that. If you are curious and want to sort out what we teach I would say first read the "official" sites. www.lds.org www.mormon.org JesusChrist.lds.org and the links from them. Then look for sites that are by members or organizations that say things like "we are in full support of the church but want to clear the air". Sites like www.evergreeninternational.org www.fairlds.org www.ancientamerica.org . I would say that sites that are written or maintained by "ex-mormons" are the worst source. I have read so many of them that it makes my head spin. Almost without exception they have had some weird, strange, or hurtful experience and have decided to leave the church. I wish them well and they have their right to publish what they want but if you really want to know what is taught they are not the ones to learn from.
So there, sorry to turn your thread into some type of discourse on the teachings of the LDS church but you know I can't help myself there.
I think we are in agreement that there is not much about the Twilight series that is worth the effort to read. But we do seem to be in the minority. I mean my wife and daughter are HUGE fans. We even have some of the movie posters hanging in my house. Thats kinda what I mean about the partnership part of marriage. I mean I really, really dislike so much about what I know of the story that I really don't want to know any more but I have to live with posters of Edward and Bella and other various cast members looking at me from the walls of my own house. I guess I should just put my foot down and demand that they all be removed and burned if I intend to properly keep my religion!!! LOL :-)
But you can't talk about the books with them if you haven't read them. It will only take a few days, because as I said, you can skim them and not read them as carefully as I did. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to allow any media of this story in my house. Just an FYI.
By the way, I love that you gave me a bunch of websites to check out. I'm going to do that. I think Mormons shouldn't be so secretive, though, it makes you look cultish. I know some things are "sacred" but that just seems scary to people. Look at the whole exorcism thing with the Catholics. They needed to talk about that and make it clear because people were afraid and skeptical. I've read the first-person account/ cult-watch websites/print about Mormon, and I'll look at the sites you listed too. Thanks.
-PC
On the openness of the religion, I don't know how much more open we could be. I have been a member since 1980 and I have been on the internet reading as much of it as I can that pertains to this religion before it was even known to the public. Even before Al Gore created it! wink wink. I can honestly tell you that there is nothing taught anywhere in our religion that can't be found. Nothing is hidden. If someone is really curious if they keep the information sorted in the broad groups I mentioned over time is should become clear what is taught in the religion. I know it can be done as I have come across sites that have done just that. They don't like what we teach but they get it right. There aren't very many but there are a few. Some of the basic tenants are taught differently than other Christian religions, if not then we wouldn't be different. We don't apologize for them or change them to be better accepted. We just believe it differently. We can't agree to disagree and move on. There are many common grounds we can walk on to do much good in the world. Let's do that.
Thanks for letting me rant a bit here. I do try to keep up with your blogs and networks but honestly you produce far more than I can keep up with completely. So keep up what you do. I will lag behind and lurk.
Chao
I did find the book to be quite boring, although I thought it was because the teenage angst was so dramatically boring. I think the feelings that Bella portrayed seem true to what some teenagers would feel, especially when she can't bear to be separated from Edward for any amount of time, and her constant neediness and lack of self-confidence. It definitely is geared toward teens and I wonder if that aspect of it does speak to them.
Is it that writing specifically for teenagers makes a book boring? I am tempted to read another author to see if that's true or not. I actually do not think the Harry Potter series was written specifically for children, even though the main characters are children. The Harry Potter books are so well-written! I remember reading Sweet Valley High books when I was really young and totally loving them. Do you think that the Twilight series is comparable to the Sweet Valley High series, but with vampires? I know that Sweet Valley High doesn't have a great reputation as "literature" as it seems like the Twilight series is trying to be passed off as.
Well, Jodi Picoult is considered "YA" (Young Adult) and she writes so much better. Or Judy Blume. Think of those authors and then compare. John Knowles wrote A Separate Peace for young people and that is now a classic in Literature. There are many, many titles from our youth, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, To Kill A Mockingbird, Jacob Have I Loved, for example, that show good writing for Young Adults. It's possible. Meyer didn't get close to that. But who cares when you are making millions of dollars, right?
I think teens like this series because 1. Edward is a superhero/perfect man 2. They aren't experienced enough to recognize a harmful obsession. 3. They fantasize about being in love and/or having sex. 4. They dream about money and ultimate freedom. Bad writing shan't get in the way of that.
Stephenie Meyer is just getting started. She will drag this out as long as she can. I hear there is another book in the works. I won't be reading any more of them, though. Meyer got slightly stronger as a writer with each passing book, but only by miniscule amounts. I think you can portray teen angst without repeating conversations constantly, which is what she overdid in the first book especially. It was very boring. The characters are extremely selfish, too, and there isn't many redeeming qualities to keep one interested in the characters' fates.
I hate to rip up other writers. But this deserved ripping and discussing because it is so popular, and mostly popular with the 12-18 set. Why adult women are reading it and loving it is a mystery. Our own mom's club is having a book club meeting about it in a few weeks! They've had movie-watching parties! These are 40 year old women (none over 50, not many under 30, I may add).
I haven't read any Sweet Valley High. I'll have to take a look at them.
-PC
The fact that Meyer is a Mormon was curious to me, and in Googling this aspect I found your blog. What caught my eye was your "abusive relationship" tag -- that's what disturbed me most about the film. Bella is sitting on her bed in her underwear, assuming she's alone, when all of a sudden, Edward is standing there. (This leads to the big kissing scene. In real life, it could easily have led to rape.) He's watching her all the time, he tells her, even when she's sleeping, to protect her, and because he's fascinated by her. In essence, she's never alone, away from his prying eye. This is what temporary restraining orders are for.
Twilight gives 16 year-old girls the notion that it's okay for a guy to stalk you, as long as he really "loves" you. That's creepy. From your review, I gather that the series goes downhill from there. As a long-time feminist, I've been waiting for the wheel to turn around again, but Twilight seems to be spinning backward, even as it touts this "you're a strong, independent woman, you can ask a boy to the prom" attitude. Very schizophrenic film. Glad I'm not young anymore.
thanks for writing!
Yes the series does go downhill, as Bella is literally kidnapped and held against her will in a following book. Edward bribes his sister with a sports car to capture and retain Bella for a weekend. Bella has to be cunning in order to slip out. Animosity abounds on both sides from her friend Jacob and from Edward. They each tell her repeatedly how the other is bad for her and how she should dump the relationship. Bella is threatened both by the friend and her lover that she will be forced to sever all ties with the other. It's ridiculous.
The scariest part is that the 4th book has it all working out in the end. What kind of message is this?
I just wish Bella had more of a sense of self. We all know what it is like to be consumed by a relationship, but 99.9% of us have the perseverance to move on after the end of it. Not Bella. She lets it consume her.
Besides all of this, the characters are awfully selfish... I don't know. I think a series like this would have been able to have good messages in it for girls. I shudder to think what 10 year olds are learning from it.
-PC
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know even one Mormon person. This is a beautiful and idyllic place, and I love it. I lived in so cal for 18 years and disliked it, especially Orange County.
With that being said, it is here that my daughter came home with reports of girls trying to kill themselves - because of boys "dumping" them. There
are many teen pregnancies, with about a half as many marriages. And women who are not paired up with someone are seen as weird. I slowly found
out that most of these young girls were Mormons.
I also was approached by some mormon missionaries here who handed me a pamphlet about families. I am 45 years old and divorced from a man
who turned from being kind and loving into a violent, abusive alcoholic. We have been struggling just to survive and I am legally disabled with health problems.
Still, they told me, my family was not right and it was a sin. They told me their church has dances (mixers) so single people (of any size, age, health, etc)
can find a mate to be spiritually correct!! it was so weird. I don't think I said much out of shock. I just don't have any desire to be with anybody after my
nightmare marriage. I feel like I am getting myself together.
I am a strong independent woman, so was my mother and grandmother. And praise God, so is my daughter. my sons are turning out great, and are
decent young men - kind, respectful, etc. I am also a Christian, yet I believe in birth control. I believe women should be taught to be their own persons
and not just an extension of a man.
I agree these Twilight books are extremely odd, could hurt young women/girls. They are nothing without their "Edward".
Thanks for letting me put my two cents in!!
Thanks for putting that two cents in! I live in the Philadelphia area and I don't get to see this kind of culture much. It sounds pretty repressive. Actually, I'm a bit shocked to hear about the teen pregnancy rates there, but they are on the rise around the country, more in the conservative states. You'd think we'd learn about repression and rebellion at some point.
At any rate, you are allowed to be an independent person! There is nothing in the New Testament (which is Jesus's new covenant and meant to wipe away the Old Testament) that says women must be with a man to be saved. Some sects of Mormon, I think, stray away from that. My friend Curtis, who commented here, is no where NEAR like that, so it is very confusing what Mormon actually stands for. It's a shame that they feel like they can tell you how to live your life.
Keep strong. This is America. You can live where you want and practice whatever religion you like in peace. It's not only the law, but it is morally and ethically the better choice (IMHO). I'm glad you filled us in on a reason why the books have Bella totally lose herself in Edward. Thanks.
-PC
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Thanks for asking!
Edward's values are conservative, and I did make a parenthetical statement above that Edward's beliefs are aligned with any conservative christian religion. What I found to be particularly Mormon was the young marriage and the immediate procreation. I'm not sure if there is any written tenets in Mormon that dictate that practice, but it is certainly part of the culture surrounding the religion.
If you are asking about the history of Mormon, the wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesu...) says that the church was founded circa 1830, well before Edward was born (according to the fuzzy timeline in the Twilight series).
There is nothing in the books that indicates any particular religious tradition in Edward's (or any other character's) history. A religious background and conflict with belief systems are usually explored in other vampire novels, so I was actually surprised that Meyer ignored this tradition in the genre. The books and characters would have been a bit more interesting if Meyer did present some inner conflict in that light.
I'm not sure if that answers your question. Let me know if I can clarify.
-PC
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I enjoyed the review and can totally see where you are coming from. I don't know much about the Mormon religion, but understand conservative Christianity and can see so much of that in these books. It makes me kind of ill to think that teens are reading these books and thinking Eddie is such a catch! and many unsuspecting parents and teachers think these books are ok just because they've heard that there's nothing overly sexual in them. if someone read this and put their daughter in the shoes of Bella Swan i'm sure they would be thinking differently.
that's what really got to me about the Twilight series: the abusive relationship and how no-one is talking about it. I really should have put that subject up at the top and put the religious aspect down at the bottom. But I guess the treating of women as second-class citizens is pretty rampant in conservative religions, so it's all relevant...
I'm glad you're finally done! I hope some parents do in fact read the books to make the decision for themselves what ages are appropriate. I'm shocked to find that some 10 year old girls are reading this stuff. My 9 year old girl is diving into Harry Potter now and I know I'll have some interesting conversations with her throughout the series. There's no way she'll be ready for Twilight until she's at least 14, and she'll have to be a pretty savvy 14 year old at that. I'd rather girls under 18 not read it at all, actually.
Anyway, the facts that the series is escaping scrutiny and is gathering momentum in the mom set are baffling to me. I just don't get it.
Thanks for coming by after you finished the books!
-PC
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I don't want to go into what I have to say too much because I plan on writing something about it later, but I will say that I completely agree with you. My biggest problem with the book, however, is how weak and pathetic both Bella and Edward are. I think this book sends an awful message to young girls. Basically, if your boyfriend leaves you, life is no longer worth living. If you don't have the balls to kill yourself (which Bella attempts throughout New Moon so she can hear Edward's voice), attach yourself to the nearest guy (Jacob) and use him for the source of your happiness. Bella is pathetic. She walks into a forest and then basically lies down to die after she naively believes Edward when he leaves her. Then she checks out for the next five or six months, barely existing as she wallows in immeasurable grief because her boyfriend dumped her...excuse me while I throw up in my mouth a little. Ugh. I am far from a feminist but damn! Give me an effing break! That's ridiculous! And Edward's no better. As soon as Alice says she sees Bella killing herself, he heads to Italy to kill himself! Lord...it's like the idiocy of Romeo and Juliet with freakish non-vampires and klutzy chicks...
Thanks for making my point and I can't wait to find the time to write my issues with this piece of shit story...
Exactly. Thanks for commenting! Come back and link me to your post when you are done.
I forgot to add the child-marriage aspect. My friend pointed out that the "imprinting" on babies thing is basically a child-marriage arrangement. We've all seen spin-offs of the Mormon church do this very thing, probably due to a fundamental belief in fate and pre-ordained couplings. With Jacob imprinting on Nessie and his other friend imprinting on the two year old girl, it supports that very fate-controlled life, especially for girls. Yuck.
I totally agree that Bella and Edward are pathetic. It was quite annoying.
-PC
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